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People like this annoy me:
(the following is an excerpt from their site)

Generally, my exchanges with Christians go as follows:

"Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Saviour?"

"No, I'm an agnostic. First prove to me there is a god, and then I'll worry about the minor details between religions."

"But if you accept Jesus Christ into your heart, you'll know God exists."

"But surely your God is the more important element. Where's your proof of god?"

"It comes from accepting Jesus Christ..."

and so it goes; talking past each other until they go away when I offer them a UCTAA pamphlet..

As they won't play my game of truly addressing proofs of the existence of a supreme being, I will, in this meditation, play their game. I'll ask them to prove that Jesus Christ actually existed.(2) What is the proof, outside of biblical texts, that this person ever lived? I will offer a Doctorate of Divinity degree from the International University of Nescience to anyone who can provide that proof.

So, He doesn't get anywhere with a combative nature toward someone's beliefs.
Shocker, hmm?
I don't understand why issues of spirituality create such... assholes... on all sides of the issue.

I have my problems with conversion oriented versions of any religion. I know that it's usually part of their belief structure. And I'd rather have a jehovah's witness show up at my door and hand me a watchtower and have a calm, polite conversation with me than have some sign wiggling, screaming, halleluiahing freak accost me in a parking lot, at a street corner, or in a store and scream at me that I'm going to burn in hell if I don't accept jesus christ as my personal savior.
I've had *both* those experiences.

To my mind there's a difference between a missionary style of faith and a conversion oriented style of faith and I think Jehovah's witness falls into the first category. I've been in and amoung families that adhered to both sides of that.. The JW family never told their daughter not to hang out with me. They never game *me* hell for not being christian. In fact, ya know.. I don't think they even asked. But I've had "born again" families refuse to allow me in their home becuase I was a heathen.
Those are just my expereiences and I know that it's not universal... but I think that the sort of rabid belief that's required to be "born again" runs exactly counter to the actual FAITH that's required to be an *honest* adherent to a spiritual path.

I dismiss bible thumpers.
Enmass. I don't care what denomination you are. If you're quoting scripture at me in response to real world questions, you don't understand your own religion.
This, of course, only applies to christianity.

Heh... I guess I'm just as bad as the "athiests" who really only argue about christianity. Therefore, making themselves "anti-christian" not "athiests"

anyway ... The bible is a... a reference book maybe... but it's not the holder of all knowledge. Some portions of it are a basis for faith, but they're a BASIS. not the faith. There is an enormous difference.

Ramble ramble ramble

I don't understand why people feel the need to deconstruct and PROVE a FAITH BASED system of thought.
Doesn't seem to me that Proof applies much at all.


( 7 comments — Leave a comment )
Jun. 29th, 2002 01:11 pm (UTC)
Tell the Mithrists to get off your back...
I found this:

Some theologians and historians believe that many of the details of Jesus' life were "borrowed" from a competing, contemporary religion, Mithraism.

Mithra was a fictional character who was worshipped as a Good Shepherd, the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, and the Messiah. A religion in his name was founded in the 6th century BCE. 5 Mithraism one of the most popular of religions in the Roman Empire, particularly among its soldiers and civil servants. It was Christianity's leading rival. 19 Like Jesus, Mithra was believed to have been born of a virgin on DEC-25. He was visited by shepherds and by Magi. He traveled through the countryside, taught, and performed miracles with his 12 disciples. He cast out devils, returned sight to the blind, healed the lame, etc. Symbols associated with Mithra were a Lion and a Lamb. He held a last supper, was killed, buried in a rock tomb. He rose again after three days later, at the time of the spring equinox, circa MAR-21. He later ascended into heaven. Mithraism celebrated the anniversary of his resurrection, similar to the Christian Easter. They held services on Sunday. Rituals included a Eucharist and six other sacraments that corresponded to later Christian rituals. Some individuals who are skeptical about stories of Jesus' life suspect that Christianity may have appropriated many details of Mithraism in order to make their religion more acceptable to Pagans. St. Augustine even stated that the priests of Mithra worshipped the same God as he did. 19 Other early Christians believed that Satan invented Mithraism and that he made Mithra's life and the practices of the religion identical to what Christianity would become centuries later. They felt that his purpose was to confuse believers.
Jun. 29th, 2002 01:17 pm (UTC)
Re: Tell the Mithrists to get off your back...
Here's the link:


OK - it looks kinda slanted towards Scientology/Wicca/Kaballah...but it's an interesting theory - as for myself - I think there was probably a historical person - probably named Joshua or Ye-hoash bin Yosef who was a radical rabbi - pissed off the establishment and got himsefl executed. From there the myth grew.

I also like to think he was called "Josh" by his best buds...Pete, Andy, Jimmy and Jack...
Jun. 29th, 2002 02:27 pm (UTC)
Re: Tell the Mithrists to get off your back...
I started looking this up because if there *is* proof that Christ was a real man, then I would really really like to read about it. Thus far I can't find anything that isn't a biased "it's just a myth" thing or a biased "it's the truth, of COURSE, just like it says in the book of the inspired word of the lord!" thing.

I wish more people *without* agendas would write about religion.
Jun. 29th, 2002 07:58 pm (UTC)
Re: Tell the Mithrists to get off your back...
It renders better as "Yeshua", actually... "Joshua" in English. "Iesus" is the Greek version, that's all. Oh, and yes, he seems to have existed; there's as much primary evidence for him as for anyone else who lived at the time.
Jun. 29th, 2002 08:01 pm (UTC)
Thanks - my Hebrew sucks...:-D
Jun. 29th, 2002 01:18 pm (UTC)
Re: Tell the Mithrists to get off your back...
Where did you find this?

I was going to add to my post later and clear up some things, add some things because I wasn't finished.
I don't want anyone getting the impression that I'm bashing christianity and certain not bashing its followers.
I realize I veered, as I'm wont to do when talking about religion because I'm interested in too many facets of it.
Jun. 29th, 2002 04:15 pm (UTC)
I did a Google search on "Mithra and Jesus" - I've known for some time about the Mithra story and how amazingly similar it is to the story of the person written about in the Gospels. It stands to reason that the earlier story could easily influence the latter - especially in view of the fact that Mithrism was popular with the military establishment at the time. Associating Jesus with Mithra would naturally give some clout to the emerging Christian religion. To me, the stories are too similar to ignore...

ON THE OTHER HAND - none of this precludes the possibility that Jesus - or who we have come to know as Jesus - did in fact exist as an actual person. I personally don't have a shred of evidence that he DIDN'T exist exactly as the New Testament describes - then again, it's impossible to prove a negative...

I say all this because I'm interested in all kinds of faiths - and how they came to the conclusions they reach - how many insist that THEY are right and all others are wrong - and the techniques used to promote morality within their cultural paradigm. There was a time when I would go to other worship services just to see what they were like - I haven't done that in a while...sometimes I get a bit uncomfortable when I feel that others are looking at me and wondering "What's HE doing here?" But that's just my own insecurity - which is partly why I go - to get over that. What I've found in the churches/temples/synogogues etc. I've been to - in every case(so far) - is a heightened sense of awareness of life. There's a euphoria I get from each different experience that I can't adequately describe in words - a general 'good' feeling. Other than that, there's very little these faiths have in common, dogma-wise...

I have to agree with you that there's little (if any) truly objective discourse about religion - and I'm not slamming folks here, just trying to describe what I happen to believe. And as for me, I don't care if Jesus never did one miracle described in the New Testament - nor do I have to believe that he was the One and Only Son of the Living God - the simple message of loving those around you as you do yourself - and to thoroughly live that life - is a powerful statement about the possibilities within each individual and of humanity as a whole.

And - lest this be taken too seriously - let me just say:

( 7 comments — Leave a comment )


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