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Getting into geopolitical conversations with my redneck, never wrong, vietnam-vet father is never ever a good idea.
But I'm a masochist, apparently.
Basically, he thinks Sadamn Hussein needs to be 'taken out' but he doesn't really like the idea of a war.
And he's annoyed that we bomb the shit out of a country and then rebuild it, "killing ourselves to go prop up their economy while destroying ours"

I said that if we're going to play babysitter to the world, we need to have follow through; That we rebuild these countries because we don't want them hating us even more than they already did, moving onto another tyrannical, bellicose dictator of a leader, and because war is a means to an end, not an end in itself; That we don't kill ourselves economically through our helping the nations we destroy, we kill ourselves economically by becoming willing slaves to the corporate climate and the 'greed is good' mentality of the yuppified "if it feels good do it" mentality that's been the disease of his generation; That every major economic plan since my *birth* has been driving us toward destitution and our just desserts as a super power run amok;

And then I said that maybe, just maybe, the way to avoid rebuilding these countries is to avoid bombing them into oblivion in the first place.

Now he's grumbling at the tv, always right about the tv people's lives because he's so fucking clueless about reality.

I think something between the world weary (sleep deprived), flat delivery and the huge amount of stuff I dumped on him all at once he had to just turn it off and pretend I hadn't said anything.
::shrug::
If I'd really wanted to push *all* his buttons, I'd have thrown something in there about how the military is too large, how the defacto racism in this country is still a major factor in why there will never be a united america and maybe something about Vietnam being a pointless exercise in killing american soldiers.

Wait... I *said* something about vietnam being a pointless exercise in killing american soldiers.
yeah.
Sleep dep-ish political rhetoric.
AAAAAHH... it's 1999 all over again.

Comments

dlbags
Oct. 6th, 2002 08:54 pm (UTC)
why?
maddening
Oct. 7th, 2002 10:12 am (UTC)
To quote from the post before this:

"Turns out that someone who said they had AT&T long distance was sorely mistaken. So my lil calling plan thing doesn't cover their calls. Sooooo I've got a bill I wasn't counting on. Thanks for double checking on that. yeah."

Expecting to pay about $20 maybe for calls I made to people I KNEW I was getting charged for calling and then getting a bill for close to $100 for all the calls to you as well...
Like I said, thanks for making sure, given that it was important and all.

dlbags
Oct. 7th, 2002 12:41 pm (UTC)
I just called my stepmother at work and double checked, she insists that we are on AT&T, she has always used it and refuses to use anything else. She was the one I asked. When she gets home she's gonna double-check it, I asked if my father may changed it, but she doesn't think so. We get our cable from AT&T as well in some package deal, so I don't know if that affects it, I'll know more tonight.
I didn't know you were referring to me in that post as I remember double checking and stuff.
dlbags
Oct. 7th, 2002 03:18 pm (UTC)
We dtriple check our bill, we have AT&T long distance. You should call and complain.
My fathers name is Paul, you have the number and address, light em up.
maddening
Oct. 7th, 2002 08:08 pm (UTC)
you're the only person with at&t long distance that I've ever been seperately billed for.
I've got other charges on the same bill for people with at&t long distance that were covered under that calling plan.

Just a little weird there.

I'm not saying you're a liar, Dave. I'm saying I'm annoyed. And I don't know why only the calls to YOU wouldn't be covered.

dlbags
Oct. 7th, 2002 08:44 pm (UTC)
What do you want me to say to that?

Your inital bitchy statement was that I didn't bother to make sure when I did- which is somewhat insulting as you didn't bother to talk to me beofre posting that, then I feel bad, call my stepmother at work to see if they changed it, get told no, look online, it's AT&T, look at a bill, it's AT&T, and you're still annoyed and assuring me I'm not a liar.

These people make mistakes all the time, I'm telling you we are on AT&T, and have been, I wouldn't make that up and give you my father's name and stuff so you can bitch at them if I didn't feel this is the case. I've had phone companies fuck shit up before, so call and complain and make them fix it.

What more can I do to "unannoy" you?

Also is your other friends' cable provider AT&T? Perhaps that makes it not show up as it should...point that out to them.
maddening
Oct. 7th, 2002 09:20 pm (UTC)
What do you want me to say to that?

Dave, I don't want you to say anything. Initially a "wow, sorry about that" would have sufficed, but you didn't even think to feel bad or apologize, you just lauched into a defensive statement.
That's fine too. If you really don't know what to say ... he's a shocker of an idea for you...stop talking.

Your inital bitchy statement was that I didn't bother to make sure when I did- which is somewhat insulting as you didn't bother to talk to me beofre posting that,

My initial "bitchy" statement was made when I was annoyed after a long bad day at work at having to pay for a phone bill I can't fucking afford right now. I mean, I can pay the bill, but I'm trying to get my life together and it's really not something I feel like I can drop money on at the moment.
And I don't remember the deal we made where I clear content about you in my own fucking journal, Dave.

then I feel bad,

Really? I couldn't tell. I just saw you getting defensive.

call my stepmother at work to see if they changed it, get told no, look online, it's AT&T, look at a bill, it's AT&T, and you're still annoyed and assuring me I'm not a liar.

Yes. I'm still annoyed at the large fucking phone bill I have to pay. The large phone bill that's attached to you. I'm allowed to be annoyed about money I have to spend that I can't afford that I was under the impression that I wouldn't have to spend.


These people make mistakes all the time, I'm telling you we are on AT&T, and have been, I wouldn't make that up and give you my father's name and stuff so you can bitch at them if I didn't feel this is the case. I've had phone companies fuck shit up before, so call and complain and make them fix it.

Thanks for the advice.


What more can I do to "unannoy" you?

You certainly aren't on the right gaddamned track right now, Dave.


Also is your other friends' cable provider AT&T? Perhaps that makes it not show up as it should...point that out to them.

Aye aye cap'n.
dlbags
Oct. 7th, 2002 10:43 pm (UTC)
I could pick apart everything bit by bit like you did but I'm not in the debate community. But if you really think I believe "not saying anything" or a "wow, sorry about that" would have been either appropriate or what you wanted, then perhaps you think I'm a moron.

What you see as me being "defensive" was me giving a fuck and trying to remedy it and give you the information so that you in fact wouldn't have to pay it. Because I am your friend and I do know your money situation, because I'm not some stranger. I didn't think a hollow apology would be appropriate nor needed. I assumed something like me feeling bad goes without saying, and that I instead was frantically trying to figure things out, including how to get you money if this in fact was an error on my part.

Calling my step mom at work...you think that's not me caring? I assumed that me doing that would go without saying how concerned I was about the situtaion- not because of trying to cover my ass, but empathy. I guess I should have pointed out that me asking my mother to look for a bill, then online for a current bill before my parents could leave for their poetry meeting, that I had to explain "why it was so nessisary they do it right this second, instead of later after they get home", how I had tell them the situation. I could have even pointed out how it's embarrasing for me as I obviously have no control in my life.

Maybe had I stated all of that you wouldn't think so low of me, that I'm some apathetic asshole being defensive. Maybe I wouldn't be hurt now wondering why I consider you a friend if this is really how you percieve me...but hey, I'm the apathetic defensive asshole who "never shuts up", so odds are, I'm just playing the victim or something...

I really wish you didn't always think the worst of me, and take EVERYTHING in the most negative, worst way posible.


I honestly don't think I'm the defensive one...
maddening
Oct. 8th, 2002 06:45 am (UTC)
I could pick apart everything bit by bit like you did but I'm not in the debate community.

Now I'm going to do it again just to annoy you. I like taking things point by point. It's never been described as "picking things apart" by anyone but you and in another other situation than an argument with you.

But if you really think I believe "not saying anything" or a "wow, sorry about that" would have been either appropriate or what you wanted, then perhaps you think I'm a moron.

Hello? I *am* the one who said that you shutting up or just saying sorry would have gone a long way to my not being annoyed. *I* said that it was what *I* would have liked. I think my saying that it would have been nice to get a sorry or that you stopping talking would have been a good idea was a pretty clear indication that that was appropriate or what I wanted.

Jeeze, Dave, maybe you *are* a moron.


I didn't think a hollow apology would be appropriate nor needed.

No, a hollow apology wouldn't have been needed. An honest one would have been nice, though.

I assumed something like me feeling bad goes without saying, and that I instead was frantically trying to figure things out, including how to get you money if this in fact was an error on my part.

I don't expect you to pay me. I know you can't afford that. I was annoyed at an unexpected bill, Dave. That's it. Your feeling bad doesn't go without saying. After all, most of what you have to say about *anything* is you making a joke, wether the situation is "appropriate" for it or not.


Calling my step mom at work...you think that's not me caring?

Dave, honestly for all I know it's a daily occurance. I don't know about the minutae of your life. I don't know what's normal or not in your routines... ::shrug:: so no, you saying that you called your stepmother really didn't carry that much weight.

Maybe had I stated all of that you wouldn't think so low of me, that I'm some apathetic asshole being defensive. Maybe I wouldn't be hurt now wondering why I consider you a friend if this is really how you percieve me

If you'd just thrown in an apology... it's one of those golden rule things. If the situation were reversed, I would feel really fucking bad. And there wouldn't be any guesswork about how I felt.

...but hey, I'm the apathetic defensive asshole who "never shuts up", so odds are, I'm just playing the victim or something...

Dave, you tend to be apathetic, you tend to be an asshole, and your replies here came off as defensiveness. I don't think you're playing the victim. I just think you should have hushed it up, let it lie, just quit while you were ahead.


I really wish you didn't always think the worst of me, and take EVERYTHING in the most negative, worst way posible.

There's a reason for that.

I honestly don't think I'm the defensive one...

If you weren't before this post, you are now.

Has it ever occured to you that I'm just not in a great mood in GENERAL? That this is one more piece of shit annoyance (the bill, the argument) that I don't need right now?
Asking you to just... stop... was an honest request. I've gone from being annoyed at the bill to just being angry and wether or not that's a reasonable or unreasonable response. And now I'm getting angry that I'm actually ANGRY about such a stupid fucking thing.

This isn't worth my efforts, it shouldn't be worth yours either. I'll drop it. If you want to respond, defend yourself, what have ya, go head.
dlbags
Oct. 8th, 2002 01:20 pm (UTC)
No, a hollow apology wouldn't have been needed. An honest one would have been nice, though.

For this? "Turns out that someone who said they had AT&T long distance was sorely mistaken. So my lil calling plan thing doesn't cover their calls. Sooooo I've got a bill I wasn't counting on. Thanks for double checking on that. yeah."
Gee, I fucking wonder why I didn't apologize sincerely or in a hollow way? Fuck you and your golden rule, it doesn't fucking apply to this. People tend to not apologize for things they didn't do and get "defensive" when they are accused of something they didn't do. But that doesn't mean shit in your court, after all you wrote that in a "bad mood" and such...not that it's an excuse or you being defensive- or even apologizing. Furthermore friends are supposed to come to each other on things like this, but I see the error of my ways which I will remedy. And like I said, it's obvious I felt bad otherwise I would have said sorry and left it at that. You think it's not easier to just say I'm sorry and not think about it anymore?

Dave, you tend to be apathetic, you tend to be an asshole, and your replies here came off as defensiveness. I don't think you're playing the victim. I just think you should have hushed it up, let it lie, just quit while you were ahead.

That was the straw, just so you know when you look back in a couple of days and your irrational bullshit wears off, and wonder what went wrong.

I've never been an apathetic asshole to my friends, people I care about, everyone but you seems to know that, so fuck it, I'm through with always wondering when you are gonna take something wrong and/or snap. I'm sick of the emotional minefield you are, how you act this way and blame it on others. Other people have feelings and a say, fuck you if you think every time YOU get mad or moody that the rest of us have to just shut up and wait for you to cool off before you can be dealt with rationally. I'm not your husband, child or whomever you actually think should act that way.

Furthermore, I've never done shit to you, even when we had that argument I tried explaining why you misinterpreted it, but I realize now how important feeling shitty from someone else is to your existence, how you need it for your planet sized chip on your shoulder. Fine. Allow me to be that again.

I'm not your fucking fan-boy, I thought I was a friend which gave me rights and feelings too, but I was mistaken. Your right about this not worth being angry about, but this also is dealing with you in a nutshell, and I don't want it anymore, I'm over it.

It's not that no one can handle or deal with you Holly, it's that you refuse to let them.

I'm taking your advice and letting things lie and quitting while I am ahead now...for once *I* will take the easy way out...


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